Response to Jukwaa

In light of this discussion on Jukwaa about DeepCogitation I thought it necessary to provide opportunity for members to provide their views/feedback.

On my part as the Blog Admin have this to say, yes many broke off from Jukwaa, but this forum is neither an extension of nor in any competition with Jukwaa and for that matter any other discussion forum.

So in a nutshell my view all I can say is that DeepCogitation is NOT jukwaa. Period

What do you folks think

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15 comments on “Response to Jukwaa

  1. Brother Adongo and other Oloo apologists, I think really the only reason in all honesty that we are having this debate in this particular forum, is for the simple reason that we do not agree with the way OO moderates and dictates the public forum known as Jukwaa. If everyone was fine with it, I suspect we’d all be there debating something or the other.
    I agree with you that he is a prolific blogger, writer and commentator and my personal opinion is that he is mediocre at best in terms of his content and style. He has however managed to get together a group of intellectually stimulating people on Jukwaa and it has been a pleasure to see the civil, mature and objective discourse over the years.
    It being ‘his’ platform, he is well within his right to moderate according to his standards and inclinations. Unfortunately in a democratic space where people value their opinions and freedoms, he took it a step too far and policed it with a very personal and unfair slant.
    The MM saga brough it to light very well and I think we all agree that he has definately lost many friends in his blind and irresponsible defence of his buddy. Freindships have no place when you moderate a board. I admire his steadfats defence of the lout known as MM but he should have done so separate from the board and unfortunately he defended him in an environment where it affected his objectivity immensely. He became MM’s mouthpiece and it went downhill from there.
    Whether or not you agree with him, he needs tbe be able to distinguish clear deliniations between personal space and public space.
    As mentioned before, my big issue with Jukwaa/OO, was that he himself decides when he can ‘out’ someone based on his perception that the person has wronged him or said something inappropriate. In this case the person did not and was publically embarrassed and the privacy we hold dear was not respected. If it is one thing we should expect and hold him accountable for is that he respect the privacy of members. He fauiled miserably with that. When I challenged him about it, he threatened me with the same actions and privately send me a nasty message saying basically the same thing.
    Jukwaa has now become a farce and the comical king sitting on the top of the anthill looks more and more like a dunce.
    I know he is a committed patriot who has led the fight against a lot is ‘isms from the ffront but you have to call it like you see it and the king if Jukwaa is becoming the Idi Amin of his dwindling castle.
    If the words directed at OO are considered insults, then so be it but I consider his treatment of many of the members of his forum insulting as well to say the least.
    I hope that I have clarified my stance on matters Jukwaa from my perspective and look forward to more discussions about anything under the sun.
    Ahsanteni

  2. Most people or at least handles I see here have been in jukwaa. I am one of them. I joined Jukwaa in 2005 after Oloo invited me to do so. Before them Oloo had actually been posting articles for me in places like mambogani (of which I became a member later), Oloo’s own blog under the Kenya democracy project and many others. So we were working all the time and taking a lot of insults from people whose only contribution to anything are insults.

    One of the reasons I am hesitant to talk about jukwaa here is that we built that house brick by brick. We did so by going to work and making the forum informative, interesting and way ahead of the noise. That is how you build these things. You can never build a forum by how much you can insult people and engage in all sorts of cheap shots. There are forums where that is the major speciality. You certainly will not build a forum by how much you insult other forums and that applies to this forum too. Insulting the other guys will take you nowhere.

    When I see people busy with insults and no work I know where they are going. Go to work first. I am known for never going to a gun fight with a knife but that is not my day job as far as blogging goes. I had to learn other skills apart from blog gun fights to be an asset of any kind. That applies to all of us. Gun fight may be necessary now and again but if it is the only skill you have, sooner or later you become a big liability in this business. Jukwaa is fine, I don’t know why folks there would want to waste a lot of time with people doing what they have been doing for years long before the same people boasting about jukwaa contributed even a coma to it.

    I get amused when I read people boasting about jukwaa and insulting adongo ogony who has no problem with them. If we didn’t work so hard over there there would be nothing to boast of for people who just got there. Keep the hard work and cut the insults and you will be fine.

  3. Allow me to chime in as well. As someone who left Jukwaa recently in a cloud of controversy, I can also confidently say that Oloo has gone a tad bit too far is his unbridled enthusiasm to ‘moderate’ and get involved in petty issues. His support and excuses for his buddy MM ultimately made many people lose respect for him but the kicker was that he warned anyone who diagreed with his defense of an egomaniac.My issue was not as much the MM saga but rather Oloo’s ‘outing’ of personal communication in the forum. Oloo never gave the guy a chance and put the guys info on ‘blast’. That aint right whichever way you cut it.
    The only thing the guy wanted to know was why he was banned and Oloo jumps on his chance to show how relevant and important he is.
    Jukwaa used to be a great place to stop by and catch up on intelligent and relevant discourse but the Oloo hangers on and his cheering section ( his ex as the main one ) have made any objectivity impossible.
    I suspect that Ndugu Oloo has had the power to ban and make lofty decisions on his little world, go to his rather large head and he sufers unfortunately from the depot syndrome.
    He tolerates nothing that he does not agree with and I for one will not join his merry little band of jugglers. Oloo is not, has never been and will never be relevant in the online Kenyan scene as his outdated and out of touch site doe snot resonate any more with the realities of Kenyans online.
    His latest foray into the NSIS, spy saga just shows how far he will go to stay relevant. His lack of humility and arrogance will ultimately leave him with a small coterie of blabbering followers who will like lemmings, fall off the cliff of insignificance.

    • good to see you here Babawatoto, and yes i remember your stance on principle on the issue of divulging private correspondence that was commendable. well amazingly it looks like we already have a full house here in a very very short period of time, its great to see all you folks here. i guess the saying that you can’t kill a good thing remains true.

      • Asante. Hope to see some good debate, informational posts and the positivity of the Kenyan online society here.

      • my friend, the one good thing in this forum for me is I don’t know one single person. But let me give you a free advice. Insulting Onyango Oloo adds no value to you or to the forum. I have worked with Onyango Oloo for close over three decades now. That is longer than some folks have been alive on this earth.

        You may not like Onyango Oloo, you may disagree with him on anything but one thing you cannot take from him is his talent. Oloo is a very gifted writer. Many people here are too. That is the stubborn thing about talent. Insults don’t do much harm to it.

        That is why I tell people it is OK to disagree and have fights etc but what you can’t do is take people’s talent away from them. I know what I am good at and when people try to take that away from me I just laugh at them because they are wasting their time.

      • adongo
        i don’t think babawatoto means this as an insult to OO, in fact i think part of the problem on jukwaa is that many of us respect the gent and were a little perplexed at the turn of events. nevertheless i think we all had the courage and will to lift ourselves and onto charting a new course, that can’t be all bad.

        on a side note and in response to the comment preceding this, a lot of us were drawn to jukwaa on account of the great debate and information that folks like you, Job, Phil, and a handful others to name but a few. its this rich history/legacy that built jukwaa. and like einstein and others pointed out to OO that jukwaa is a result of all those years of inputs.

        i dont think anyone of us here want to trash any other forum, but perhaps it doesn’t hurt to mention the specifics of what we think went wrong.

        overall i think on this forum we are on a different course but i guess we will find out as we go.

      • Amen brother Adongo and God bless but I also agree with what Tnk said above!! Adongo did you know that many people on Jukwaa to date do not want to accept the fact that OO is actually my REAL brother? They think that I criticize OO simply because I want to put him down! Far from the truth, I care more about OO than some of those charlatans on my neck on Jukwaa do!! But time will tell. I even dare now invite OO to DC as his second home!

  4. As I said in jukwaa previously, there is no need to fight over nothing. At the end of the day we are just trying to promote Kenya the best way we can.

    • mzee

      i see that the “debate” is still “raging” on jukwaa (6 pages and counting) with some recent spicy additions on NSIS/CID involvement. even saw some mention of galileo and a flat earth, who would think a blog can turn out to be of such high interest?

      interestingly enough, an unusually large number of contributors have taken to bashing this forum which is still in early stages of development, still can’t figure out why after all they claim theirs to be the best forum, yet they are spending a lot of energy to discredit this forum.

      the mind boggles 🙂

  5. Bwana Admin,

    I must say that I’m still perplexed as to why OO started the DeepCogitation vs. Jukwaa thread. With that action, he has now inadvertently and regrettably so created an unnecessary rivalry between the two forums; a rivalry that will very soon match that between AFC Leopards and Gor Mahia in soccer derbies. This is very sad indeed and hence I also echo the Blog Admin’s sentiments when he says that DC is neither in competition with Jukwaa nor any other discussion forum on the blogosphere. In fact that competition will not be possible since the goals of both boards are as far apart as day and night.

    Given the rivalry tone that OO had set by starting the thread, it did not take long before some Jukwaa members, best known only for heckling, took the cue and unprovoked started heckling DC and its members. They even went as far as spinning propaganda as to the reasons that led to the spin-off. The reasons that led to the foundation of DC are very clear and well documented on Jukwaa. It was the “my-way-or-the-highway” kind of attitude developed by the Jukwaa Admin and Jukwaa Moderator that led to the spin-off. But, of course, the usual hecklers would rather invent stories that will massage their own egos like this one: “You people miscalculated when you went off in a huff and a puff to start DC and to make a concerted effort to draw people from this site to that. You misunderstood that jukwaa has established itself as a credible site on all matters kenya. People still come here in their usual numbers to look up information and to make their own contributions.” What hogwash! Who are the people who made Jukwaa enjoy the fame it has today? Was it not the very same members who were told to leave and establish their own discussion forum if they felt unhappy with Jukwaa?

    As if the heckling is not enough, they even start going personal calling DCers lowlifes, self-deluded and all.

    These people are only good at gossiping. Instead of debating national issues and providing solutions, they talk about DC. Why are they not talking about Mashada, Nipate and all the other Kenyan blogs? They even complain that we migrated with our ‘Jukwaa’ handles. Jeeez, don’t they know that handles are personal properties of the individuals who created them and hence can register the same handle in a dozen other forums as long as that particular handle is not already registered in those sites by a different person? This particular example just shows you how petty these hecklers are!

    Personally, I will ignore them unless someone attacks my handle. In that case I will go back and hit back.

    All in all, the competition that OO intended to generate through his thread by giving it such a title is not going to work. The two entities are miles apart in terms of goals and objectives. One is a talk shop while the other is solution oriented.

    But, hey let them remain one of our friendly blogs!

    That is my take.

  6. Indeed! Juvenile to the point of being a circus.

    I told Oloo when he started the ‘us vs them’ thread in Jukwaa that it is a free world and anyone is free to blog anywhere. That has always been my firm belief.

    Some idiotic Jukwaaist even suggested that I was promoting DC at Jukwaa by linking articles at DC there. Members do link articles from the Nation and may other sites including youtube at these blogs including Jukwaa. The Administrator himself has no qualms linking his personal blog demokrasia to Jukwaa. I do sometimes link to ODM website, sometimes to Raila Campaign Website, etc.

    So one must surely wonder what this phobia for DeepCogitation is coming from at Jukwaa. It is a worrying trend and one that denies the followers of that board opportunity to follow meaningful political debate.

    Undoubtedly, Adongo, Roughrider and Job (to name but a few) have been excellent contributors to Jukwaa and the Kenyan blogosphere at large. They are well informed and gifted writers. Jukwaa is certainly not the same without them. I particularly miss one NaliNali who was unjustifably banned by Oloo.

    You turn and look at the current most active critics and you soon realise their best role at Jukwaa has been to copy-paste articles from Kenyan Daily press, especially the Sunday ones. Those are the empty debes. Pathetic contributors more of liabilities to Oloo. Even the moderator is just that by name. The Administrator still has to double up as moderator.

    No one can dictate to me where to blog. It’s a free world.

  7. would like to make it clear and i speak for myself that, i was first a member of raila blog http://raila2007.wordpress.com/, but evidently the owner of that forum was not really interested in change and vanished soon after the elections never to be heard of again, causing the natural demise of that forum.

    i also joined kumekucha but sadly the forum has its share of some very uncouth characters and therefore pulled out of active contribution at some point.

    jukwaa was therefore my third preference but again as the level of discourse deteriorated, i have pulled back and am so glad to found a forum similar to the raila 2007 blog. overall i think onyango oloo has done very well moderating jukwaa, however, there have been instances of lapse in judgement specifically 1) allowing some degenerate debate to go on without relief 2) stifling debate on some sensitive issues e.g sexism and one or two others 3) getting blind sided on issues to do with miguna miguna. i personally think jukwaa has lost focus on issues and is now engaged in the retrogressive discourse of pursuing personalities either for or against and that is in my view a path that will lead to nowhere. sure we need to discuss public figures, but it should be geared towards their response or actions as leaders. and on jukwaa lately there are numerous and sustained ugly and absolutely unnecessary personal attacks between contributors.

    i would hope that this forum will be supportive of the change and reform movement, can look at issues objectively but with the reform agenda as the guiding principle, and be able to constructively criticize the party that is best capable of pursuing and implementing reforms in the country i.e ODM.

    anyway, already because of ODM, an impressive list of reforms have taken place but the dangers of sliding back still remains as can be seen by the recent actions of parliament which has consistently eroded any gains made e.g integrity and chapter 6, political party discipline, etc

    there is still a lot more to do and believe that deepcogitation will have its say and contribute towards this process

    in conclusion i think the juvenile kenyan mentality of turning everything into some kind of competition (mine is better than yours, my daddy he bigger than yours) is pathetic and continues to stifle potential. everyone and everything has a time and place for it, i think here on deepcogitation we are not in competition with other blogs but will certainly provide alternative forum for engaging and lively discussion.

    ivyo tu

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